Got a lot of requests about this. I didn't want to write about it because there is really no upside. But the more I read other people's comments, the angrier I became. So here we are.
A certain comedian that I used to work for got into "internet trouble" yesterday. I call it internet trouble because it's a story that spreads online, and feels like it's just a way for bloggers to get web traffic. Are they really offended by any of this? I doubt it.
But anyway, if you haven't heard, the basic story (from the heckler's point of view) goes like this:
He's onstage at the Laugh Factory doing his act, and doing a bit about rape. A woman in the audience yells "Rape is never funny!". He responds, "wouldn't it be funny if she got raped by 5 guys right now".
Again, this is from her point of view. It may have gone differently, but whatever.
A shit storm was created. The internet did its outrage thing. People reposted the blog and wrote their own posts about how rape is never funny and the comedian was out of line and a jerk, etc.
First, let me state the obvious: lots of comics do rape jokes. And some of those comics are women. Sarah Silverman being the obvious example. And there was an episode of "Girls" that hinged on Lena Dunham's character telling a rape joke. So let's not pretend like there's this one guy out there doing rape jokes.
You know what else people joke about? 9/11. The Holocaust. People who have been kidnapped. People who have been murdered.
These are horrible things. Certainly, things that are no laughing matter. But we joke about them. Some of those jokes might offend you, others might not. But as a comedian, it's impossible to figure out which are the jokes everyone is okay with.
So if you're offended by a joke, well that's just too bad. Other people might not be, and the joke is for them. Also, they're just words! Who cares?
All comedy is a risk: the audience might not laugh, they might laugh the
wrong way, they might think it's corny, or lame, or offensive,
whatever. It's hard making people laugh! And there's always the risk
that it can go horribly wrong, this is why comedians are maniacs.
My question would be to this woman: are holocaust jokes ever funny? Because if they are, then you obviously hate Jews. Have you ever laughed at a JonBenet Ramsey joke? Then you want little white girls to be killed.
You see what I'm getting at here. She doesn't like rape jokes. Some people do. That doesn't mean they condone rape. It just means it made them laugh. Oftentimes, jokes are told about awful things. It doesn't mean the person is glad the awful thing happened.
So her yelling out at a comedy club at a comedian that rape jokes are never funny is kinda ridiculous. Okay, not kinda, it's totally and completely ridiculous and bullshit behavior. It's not your job to tell everyone else what is funny, they can decide for themselves.
If you're gonna take jokes this hard, you probably shouldn't go to a comedy club in the first place.
A member of the Comedy Police at the website Think Progress has been blogging about this. She writes:
If you’re going to upset a lot of people, and defend upsetting a lot of people, you have to have more than a pedestrian joke to offer up. You have to have a point, and you have to execute it with a high degree of precision.
No, you don't have to. You don't have to do anything. You're on stage, trying to make people laugh. It's hard. This isn't TV or the movies, this is a comedy club. They're trying to get laughs. They're trying to work on their material. They don't HAVE to make the joke suitable to you. This blogger is just like the heckler! "Your joke has to suit my needs!" No, IT DOESN'T!
Now, saying "wouldn't it be funny if she was getting raped right now" isn't a great thing to say to someone, but this didn't take place at her job. It wasn't on the street. It wasn't on the bus.
It was at a comedy club! After she was heckling. Even worse: heckling with a poor argument (see above). Did she expect him to say something nice in reply? "Oh, that's a good point. Rape jokes aren't funny, please allow me to remove it from my act, ma'am".
Have you ever been to a comedy club when someone is heckling? It's the most annoying, uncomfortable experience. We didn't pay to listen to an audience member, we paid to hear the person on stage. And if you don't like what the person on stage is saying, please leave. Comedy clubs don't have locks on the doors. They also aren't rated PG.
Again, comedians are up there fighting for their life. They don't have the luxury of going home, sitting in front of their computer, and crafting an appropriate response. His poorly chosen response came after about 2 seconds of thought to a person who had challenged him in front of a club filled with people. Sorry if it wasn't politically correct.
I understand the insensitivity of it. I understand that she's a woman and rape is horrible and she felt intimidated. That sucks. But that is the risk you take when you shout at a comedian on stage. You're gonna get a response. It wasn't the one you wanted, but guess what? It was never going to be.
One thing is for sure though, arguing about comedy is never funny.
32 comments:
Blog posts about rape jokes are never funny.
I disagree with the anonymous poster above.
This was a really well done post presenting a great opposing view to the super loud one on the internet. Thanks for this post!
Well said, man, and I actually think his response was not "poorly chosen." It was funny, on point, quick, and he's not wishing rape on her in real life, you oversensitive idiots. He's saying it'd be funny (ironic) in comedy-imagination land. It would be. You know what else would be funny? If all the people who are so upset about rape jokes got gang-raped by a pack of angry rape jokes. He's a comedian! They're just jokes. Take it down a notch.
You're missing the point.
He originally said "Rape jokes are ALWAYS funny".
That's the context for her response.
Do you think it's possible to be funny and also be a piece of shit human being? I wouldn't censor the guy, but he's doing a good job of perfecting the douche type. Which, if you want to be that type, good for you. Just don't make out like you're some victim of a lynch mob when people call you out for being a douche. (I posted a single link to this story on G+ and was treated to the kind of comments that make me wonder if Tosh really wants to be associated with the idiots who seem to make up a large segment of his fan base.)
Seems to me that two douch bags were trying to outdo each other. His reply was off-colored, not funny at all, and made him look bad. He needs a good comedy writer... know any that would work for him? Your comment... "Oh, that's a good point. Rape jokes aren't funny, please allow me to remove it from my act, ma'am" woulda been funnier and defused the fireworks. But, everything goes at a comedy club... rape jokes and class included. He just had no class.
I agree with you completely. What really bothers me about most of the internet response is that people seem to be reading into his response that he was calling on people to rape her. Like it was a SUGGESTION. It wasn't. It was supposed to be funny-ironic (it really wasn't, but that's not the point), he wasn't telling people "Hey, you guys should rape this bitch for heckling me."
Her response to it was overreacting. No need to interact with the dude on stage. Just leave. And then to expect a refund? Comedy clubs aren't exactly the place to go to have your delicate girl flower feelings handled with sensitivity and tact.
Zorro, we can speculate all day about what he SHOULD have said, but he said the first thing that popped into his head. That's how improv works. You don't have the luxury of thinking about it. Was it funny? No. But that's part of the danger of comedy. Not everything you say will be funny, and three days later you'll probably come up with the PERFECT thing to say that would have been hilarious.
No difference than life, Valerie... but a ittle class sure helps pick out the right thing (or funny thing) to say on the spot.
Zorro, if you read this blog, you're obviously familiar with Daniel Tosh's style. Why on earth would you ever expect class out of him?
My point exactly... all 3 times that I tried to get into his "style".
no, rachel moles, you are missing the point. he was doing a bit. on stage. jokes often involve saying things that aren't true, that are sarcastic, that are over the top and ridiculous. i've got news for you, the pope, a rabbi, and a leprechaun were never in a boat together. a man with a bird on his shoulder never walked into that bar. and that chicken never was even on that road. these are jokes!!! and when you're onstage doing them at a comedy club, it's not supposed to be a back and forth conversation.
jackie, of course it's possible to be funny and a bad human being. in my opinion, responding to a heckler one night in a comedy club doesn't make someone a bad human being.
you don't think he should make out like he's some victim? well, i don't think she should make out like she's a victim. she's not. and i'm sorry, but any time you get really popular, especially as a comedian, you're gonna have some fans who are assholes. there's nothing you can do about it. plus, i don't think anonymous commenters on the internet are the best judge of someone's fan base in general.
Rape isn't funny.
Rape jokes can be funny.
That's the distinction. No one believes that if Daniel Tosh came across a woman getting raped, he'd stop and laugh.
The internet only has room for the extreme arguments. You either hate comedy or support rape.
Nah... I like good comedy, no matter what topic. What I don't like is poor taste and lack of class. Tosh had em both in this instance. He really needs coaching from a good comedy writer. Heck, if I were telling rape jokes, I'd be prepared to handle this type of heckler. Obviously, he wasn't... got his feelers hurt... and retaliated poorly without thinking and, again, no class.
Has nothing to do with good comedy.
Nah... I like good comedy, no matter what topic. What I don't like is poor taste and lack of class... Tosh had 'em both in this instance. He really needs coaching from a good comedy writer. If I were telling rape jokes, I'd be prepared to handle this type of heckler. I'd already have thought of an appropriate, funny, comeback. Obviously, he hadn't... and retaliated poorly without thinking and, again, with no class.
This has nothing to do with good comedy... but then, as hack says, I don't get to declare what isn't funny for the rest of you.
oops... even I don't like reading my thoughts twice... sorry for the double post.
well said, andrew. you did it in 4 sentences, i needed a hundred.
but zorro, once again, the question is: what is poor taste? and more importantly, who gets to be the judge of it?
i don't know. honestly, i think it's silly for people to be hurt by words, especially ones uttered by a comedian. who cares?
Poor taste is in each person's individual judgement, so we all get to be our own judges. If I'd gone to that show, I'd think that he was in very poor taste (for me). I wouldn't not upset the first time, but if it continued, I'd walk out. I paid to see someone funny, and in my "judgement" that just isn't funny. And, I don't hate comedy, and don't support rape, btw.
exactly! that makes perfect sense. you'd walk out. you wouldn't heckle. because if you did heckle, chances are that the guy saying things you deemed in poor taste, would say even more things in poor taste, but directed at you.
We agree. She's more wrong than he was. But, wow, he isn't very good, is he? I understand it was a 2 second response, but c'mon, that's really a poor job. I probably woulda already walked out on him, not because of his poor taste, he just doesn't make me laugh. My own individual judgement, tho.
I feel like I've been train-raped by this whole controversy.
And I bet you bastards think that's funny.
You disgust me.
Speaking of a lack of class....
Irwin, the comments I received were not at all anonymous. These men put their names to them, for the record (not that this is a trial).
Someone with a brain made a good comment on my link, which was this: I don't want to live in a world where people don't get upset about rape jokes. I'm inclined to agree wholeheartedly.
Again, would never want to live in a world where anyone is censored. I'm an extremist in this - free speech means you have to live with people saying classless or downright vile stuff. I'm okay with that, even if I don't enjoy it. The society in which everyone's rights are respected is the hardest to govern, and I'm fine with that too.
But if I had a son and he turned into the kind of person who would make a "joking" suggestion that a specific woman be raped, I'd be deeply ashamed. I hope Daniel has the ability to be ashamed of himself, but that part is really none of my business.
BTW, there's a big difference between jokes about the Holocaust and 9/11 and jokes about how a specific woman should be raped. Putting a specific human being under that kind of threat - no matter how funny you think it is - is morally indefensible.
Rape is an emotional issue, and if Daniel is going to make jokes about it, he has to be prepared for people to get emotional about it. I have never heard Matt Stone or Trey Parker act like crybabies because people get mad about their jokes, and I respect the hell out of them for it (and think they're hilarious).
when did he act like a crybaby about it?
and he did not say she SHOULD be raped. that is just completely not what he said. she was not under any threat. again, this was a comedian dealing with a heckler, let's not get crazy.
As far as the idea that she should just have "walked out"... if I were a woman, I might have felt a little afraid to walk out of a club at night by myself even without the suggestion that it would be funny if I got raped. Jus' sayin'.
Ricky Gervais has an HBO comedy special that I just watched last night on cable. In this special, he very eloquently explains how certain jokes (like rape jokes) can be funny. Anyone who watches his HBO show (called Ricky Gervais 2) will surely be able to understand why a perfectly normal person would find jokes that are off color to be funny. I won't go into it here because it was like a full 10 minute bit where Gervais explains the nuances of it all. All those here who are so upset should immediately go watch Gervais explain his point (it is the same point that Tosh makes only Gervais does it way better here).
I find that when we joke about things that are terrible, it takes the power away from the terrible thing that we are making fun of. Have any of you ever been in a horrible situation and thought, "some day I hope to look back at this and laugh"? Where do you think this saying comes from? HELLO!
This woman had no place going to Daniel Tosh's comedy show if she is so sensitive because his reputation proceeds himself. As for the comment about her being afraid to leave the comedy show alone at night...give me a break! Do you think that all of us women are such delicate little flowers that we can't go out at night unaccompanied by a man without fear of getting raped? Puke! Do we even know that this took place in the dark? Maybe it was a 7 pm show? Who knows. Maybe the person she went there with should have left with her if she was so afraid. Or maybe that person wasn't offended by Tosh and wouldn't leave the show because he or she thought the offended woman was a nut bag for getting her panties in such a bunch over nothing.
I am a woman. I was nearly date raped back in college. I've always had to fend guys off where ever I go because I'm considered "attractive". It can be suffocating sometimes. BUT, that doesn't mean I can't laugh at a rape joke every now and then. I laughed during Gervais' comedy show where he talks about two whales having gay sex and the one whale is raping the other whales blow hole. It's just humor.
Jackie D - Holocaust jokes and 9/11 jokes aren't personal? I'm the grandkid of Holocaust survivors. I know (and most of us do) people who were in NYC during 9/11. Those things can be incredibly personal. And they can still be funny. For the record, he APOLOGIZED for the comments he made. If he didn't recognize he said the wrong thing, would he have bothered to? He's not exactly an A-list celebrity. It wouldn't have hurt his career any to keep his mouth shut until the whole thing blew over. But he apologized. Why doesn't that count for anything? Unless he has a time machine, I'm not sure how he can make anyone happy.
oh canadian pete, i'm disappointed in you, sir! that is totally outrageous. first of all, she was there with people. second of all, you're pretty much saying that women should be scared to walk anywhere alone. that's pretty crazy.
my ex girlfriend used to work at that club. she lived down the street, and every night, after hearing about a million rape jokes, she'd walk home at 1am. she was never raped, she was never scared of getting raped, the thought never entered her mind. again, this is a comedy club. jokes!
If Tosh had been making an off-color joke about 9/11, gotten interrupted by a person angry that 9/11 jokes aren't funny, and then said "wouldn't it be funny if she was killed by a terrorist tonight," would there still be an outrage?
Here's a solution: if you don't find rape jokes funny, don't go to Tosh's stand up gigs or watch his show. Nobody who feels that rape jokes are never funny is going to change the mind of those who love this edgy, satirical humor. Nobody who is a fan of Tosh is going to convince the offended that they shouldn't be offended.
Everyone needs to get off the internet and go do something else for a little while. Like watch the pilot of Tosh's new animated show. Oh, wait... scratch that.
"... every night, after hearing about a million rape jokes... " Yikes! That club certainly caters to an interesting demographic.
For the record, I said if I were a woman. I. Me. I didn't intend to speak for all women (or, uh, men imagining they were women).
well, maybe if you walked her home, she wouldn't be your ex-girlfriend!
Let's get Chris Harrison out here to announce the final rose and call it a night eh?
haha i to definnitely comment on this one, "rape jokes are always funny" he said, but wow a lot of ppl on top of me lost the point, once, twice and even thrice!! come on guys!!
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